Glad to see it's the real King Grayskull and not the race bait one.

Posted by: @searchor

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Glad to see it's the real King Grayskull and not the race bait one.

OMFG still? 200x is a different universe. Race bait doesn't mean the way you're using it. And do you complain about Zodak the same way? 

@mighty-thanos nu-Grayskull debuting in netflix doomed any chances of him not being seen as pandering.

@searchor Gross, dude

@cosmic Not even close.

Posted by: @mighty-thanos

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Posted by: @searchor

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Glad to see it's the real King Grayskull and not the race bait one.

OMFG still? 200x is a different universe. Race bait doesn't mean the way you're using it. And do you complain about Zodak the same way?

I can't speak for Searchor, and I do agree his choice of terms is off,

however personally no I didn't say anything about Zodak I do however feel they should not have, for lack of a better term, raceswapped King Grayskull.

Two important points here: first I differentiate between race swapping and color blind casting. Color blind casting is when you don't consider race at all one way or another and cast based on talent and ability to capture the character alone. That's good and fair. Race swapping is when you deliberately change the ethnicity of a character for whatever reason.  It may be a good reason, or it can come off as pointless (again for lack of better term) "pandering".  A publicity stunt not actual progressiveness. (Revelation did both: King Grayskull was changed to a black man, but He-Ro was kept white however he was voiced be Phil Lamar who is black) 

Second I don't see it as, pardon the expression, a black and white issue. That is to say it's not all or nothing. Most people seem to think you either have to be totally okay with it for any character or never at all (and therefore you're a bigot) There is little to no acceptance for being fine with it for one character but not another and that's simply not fair. There can be legitimate non racist reasons to avoid changing a character's race such as:

1. if it's based on a real person it should be that person's race. You don't cast Densel Washington as George Washington.

2. Historical accuracy. If it's set in say the 1800's a then black man would not be say the mayor of a town. People of the time would not have that (yes it was racist of the people in the time period but it's not racist of modern cinema to accurately portray that)

3. If characters are closely related then they should logically be the same race. (I myself once lost out on a part in a play because they chose to cast a black man as the lead and thus decided I, being white, could not play his father)

And it's that last one that kind of leads into the reason I don't think King Grayslull should have been changed. The showmakers argued, "why does there need to be two big muscular white guys with the power" Probably meant to be a rhetorical question but it actually has an answer: King Grayskull is supposed to be He-Man's LOOK ALIKE ANCESTOR Aside from the longer hair and cape they are supposed to be identical. When Adam invokes the power of Grayskull he takes on the form of Grayskull. That's a big character trait that was either overlooked or blatantly ignored. There's no reason He-Man can't have a black ancestor, but it shouldn't be King Grayskull himself who should look the same as him.

Now I can understand and respect that not everyone may feel that's an important enough character trait, but at the same time I would expect those people to likewise understand and respect that others do feel that way and that it's in no way a racist point of view. 

Now I was never a big fan of King Grayskull to begin with. His introduction I felt reduced the intended significance of He-Ro especially in Classics continuity where He-Ro was reduced to just some guy who brought the Power Sword to Eternia then died. I came to accept him though, especially when other continuities brought He-Ro back into significance such as making him Gryakull's son instead. But now they used the changed version of King Grayskull in Origins and in turn introduced a brand new character for his wife. So what about Veena then?!? Did they just toss her out completely or reduce her significance? (kinda like how He-Ro was largely tossed out/reduced for King Grayskull)

Most of the time I don't really care one way or another: I'm not going to complain about a race change, but I'm not going to praise it either. Even with the examples I gave there have been times I felt it went against one of these but shrugged it off. I've even done some race changing in alternate continuity fan-fics myself. As long as they give a good performance and/or capture the character well then all's good. That however is why I am wary -not opposed just wary- when it happens because if I feel that they in fact did not give a good performance or failed to properly capture the character I want to be able to express my opinion without being dismissed as, "Oh you just don't like that they changed XXX's race"

Posted by: @lordofdestruction

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however personally no I didn't say anything about Zodak I do however feel they should not have, for lack of a better term, raceswapped King Grayskull.

Two important points here: first I differentiate between race swapping and color blind casting. Color blind casting is when you don't consider race at all one way or another and cast based on talent and ability to capture the character alone. That's good and fair. Race swapping is when you deliberately change the ethnicity of a character for whatever reason.  It may be a good reason, or it can come off as pointless (again for lack of better term) "pandering".  A publicity stunt not actual progressiveness. (Revelation did both: King Grayskull was changed to a black man, but He-Ro was kept white however he was voiced be Phil Lamar who is black) 

Categorizing this as a publicity stunt mate is nonsensical. Also to not fault Zodak in your line of reasoning is hypocritical when Mike Young said Zodak was an action of Mattel and he wanting more diversity in the series.

Posted by: @lordofdestruction

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3. If characters are closely related then they should logically be the same race. (I myself once lost out on a part in a play because they chose to cast a black man as the lead and thus decided I, being white, could not play his father)

And it's that last one that kind of leads into the reason I don't think King Grayslull should have been changed. The showmakers argued, "why does there need to be two big muscular white guys with the power" Probably meant to be a rhetorical question but it actually has an answer: King Grayskull is supposed to be He-Man's LOOK ALIKE ANCESTOR Aside from the longer hair and cape they are supposed to be identical. When Adam invokes the power of Grayskull he takes on the form of Grayskull. That's a big character trait that was either overlooked or blatantly ignored. There's no reason He-Man can't have a black ancestor, but it shouldn't be King Grayskull himself who should look the same as him.

Its a different universe. King Grayskull wasn't supposed to be anything. If you're playing that game you should be pissed off that 200x changed so much in their reboot. They changes a lot of established canon.

Posted by: @mighty-thanos

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Its a different universe. King Grayskull wasn't supposed to be anything. If you're playing that game you should be pissed off that 200x changed so much in their reboot. They changes a lot of established canon.

You just proved my point about how people think it has to be all or nothing. There were other changes in 200X I didn't like. I'm allowed to think some changes are okay and others aren't. If we're supposed to just accept any and all changes just because its a different universe than I guess that means a giant tuna eating iguana with no atomic breath is fine as Godzilla. Or a mute Baraka wannabe is Deadpool. Who cares if Batman guns down bad guys like the Punisher?

Okay let's keep it in MOTU: Biuzz-Off is now a fly not a bee. They still buzz right? Battle Cat is now a leopard instead of a tiger. Skeletor only wears a mask instead of actually having a skull for a face. Speaking of faces Orko no longer covers his. Oh and He-Man is a soldier from the US military with normal human strength. Hey it's a different universe after all right?

I distinctly said I understand and respect that not everyone will consider King Grayskull being a He-Man's look alike ancestor an important trait of his character but apparently it was too much to ask that others respect differences of opinion.

Posted by: @lordofdestruction

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Posted by: @mighty-thanos

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Its a different universe. King Grayskull wasn't supposed to be anything. If you're playing that game you should be pissed off that 200x changed so much in their reboot. They changes a lot of established canon.

You just proved my point about how people think it has to be all or nothing. There were other changes in 200X I didn't like. I'm allowed to think some changes are okay and others aren't. If we're supposed to just accept any and all changes just because its a different universe than I guess that means a giant tuna eating iguana with no atomic breath is fine as Godzilla. Or a mute Baraka wannabe is Deadpool. Who cares if Batman guns down bad guys like the Punisher?

Okay let's keep it in MOTU: Biuzz-Off is now a fly not a bee. They still buzz right? Battle Cat is now a leopard instead of a tiger. Skeletor only wears a mask instead of actually having a skull for a face. Speaking of faces Orko no longer covers his. Oh and He-Man is a soldier from the US military with normal human strength. Hey it's a different universe after all right?

I distinctly said I understand and respect that not everyone will consider King Grayskull being a He-Man's look alike ancestor an important trait of his character but apparently it was too much to ask that others respect differences of opinion.

 

I didn't disrespect your opinion. You put it out there with your numbering system why white characters should always remain white in certain situations. Don't put it out in the forum if you don't want it challenged. To me 200X made giant changes when they took the falcon motif away from the Sorceress or changed the powersword into a mechanical shape shifting blade. That is closer to your Battle Cat is a leopard and Buzz-Off is a fly nonsense extremes than giving Grayskull dark skin in my opinion but those I never hear complaining about. 

@mighty-thanos You most certainly did disrespect my opinion and you're still doing it. You are literally telling me I can't have a certain opinion about something without also having a certain opinion about something else.

For the record no I didn't particularly like the non falcon motif for Sorceress nor the mechanical Power Sword, but at the same time it wasn't enough to ruin the experience/story for me. And for that matter neither was changing King Grayskull's race. They're all examples of things I think shouldn't have been changed but at the same time not enough for me to declare it an in name only adaptation. Maybe I didn't make myself clear in that regard.(My complaint about it carrying over to Origins was solely about the apparent removal of Veena's character)

Yes I used extreme examples to showcase why we shouldn't just accept any change because it's a different canon but I was trying to emphasize my point that it's fine to be okay with some changes and not others.

The point of my list (Not "numbering system" list) was that 9 out of 10 times a character's race is not relevant but there are some examples where it is. I felt King Gryaskull was such an example, while also acknowledging not everyone would agree. Clearly you don't agree. Fine, but you don't get to tell me I "should be pissed" about something just because I'm not fond of something else.

That's my final word on the matter. Frankly I feel I may be wasting my time typing this at all.

Posted by: @lordofdestruction

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@mighty-thanos You most certainly did disrespect my opinion and you're still doing it. You are literally telling me I can't have a certain opinion about something without also having a certain opinion about something else.

For the record no I didn't particularly like the non falcon motif for Sorceress nor the mechanical Power Sword, but at the same time it wasn't enough to ruin the experience/story for me. And for that matter neither was changing King Grayskull's race. They're all examples of things I think shouldn't have been changed but at the same time not enough for me to declare it an in name only adaptation. Maybe I didn't make myself clear in that regard.(My complaint about it carrying over to Origins was solely about the apparent removal of Veena's character)

Yes I used extreme examples to showcase why we shouldn't just accept any change because it's a different canon but I was trying to emphasize my point that it's fine to be okay with some changes and not others.

The point of my list (Not "numbering system" list) was that 9 out of 10 times a character's race is not relevant but there are some examples where it is. I felt King Gryaskull was such an example, while also acknowledging not everyone would agree. Clearly you don't agree. Fine, but you don't get to tell me I "should be pissed" about something just because I'm not fond of something else.

That's my final word on the matter. Frankly I feel I may be wasting my time typing this at all.

I'm still disrespecting your opinion? You first replied to me with your opposing opinions. I didn't start our conversation and you don't hear me saying you disrespected my opinions.

I agree this should be your final word on the matter because I don't think you understand how discussion forums work and how opinions are challenged in them. It's not a safe space.

@mighty-thanos As a third party outside observer who read through both sides of the argument I'm afraid I must say Lord of Destruction is correct: you were being disrespectful of his opinion. As he rightly pointed out you were literally telling him he can't have a certain opinion about something without also having a certain opinion about something else. Indeed his original replay was in response to you doing the same thing to Searchor. 

Lord of Destruction stated his opposing point of view but clarified that he respected not everyone would feel the same way. You however rudely called his opinion "nonsense" and as previously stated insisted he could only have a certain opinion about other issues based on his opinion about that one. You made it very clear that you did not respect his point of view. 

That is not how discussion forums are supposed to work as you put it. It in fact is supposed to be a "safe space".  You don't "challenge" other people's opinions you state your disagreement but you do it in a civilized respectful way. Agree to disagree. He did. You did not.

And I agree with him. King Grayskull is supposed to be He-Man's look alike ancestor. It's a physical trait of the character.